This episode was written and produced by Andrew Anderson.

The names of pop and rock stars are known by millions of people around the world, but the people who actually write their music often stay in the shadows. In this episode, we peel back the curtain on the songwriters behind some of the biggest hits of the last forty years, and find out how this unseen part of the industry really works. Along the way, we’ll get the inside scoop about working with KISS, Bon Jovi, Ricky Martin, Snoop Dogg, Puff Daddy, and more. Featuring songwriter Desmond Child and rapper/songwriter Gizzle.

MUSIC FEATURED IN THIS EPISODE

Original Music by Wesley Slover
Honey C’Mon by The Best Ofs
Stompin’ Jazz Night by Golden Age Radio
The Olive Branch by Moines Le Quartet
Nothing to Talk About by Zorro
Thinking About You by Cody Fry
Cargo Rhodes by Stan Forbee
House Party by jacuzzi jefferson
Confetti by Laurell

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View Transcript ▶︎

[music in]

You’re listening to Twenty Thousand Hertz.

Elvis Presley was the king of rock n roll. He dominated the pop charts like no solo artist had ever done before. And over the course of his career, he had eighteen number one songs. But here’s the thing...

[music out]

...Elvis didn’t write any of ‘em. Not Hound Dog, not Jailhouse Rock, not Blue Suede Shoes, and – suspiciously – not even Suspicious Minds.

[music clip: Elvis - Suspicious Minds]

There was one time Elvis got a co-writing credit. It was on All Shook Up. He told people that he came up with the title...

[music clip: Elvis - All Shook Up]

...But apparently, the actual songwriter Otis Blackwell only gave him the credit so The King would agree to record it.

[music out]

But Elvis really wasn’t doing anything unusual. Frank Sinatra, Dianna Ross, Kenny Rogers, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Tim McGraw and tons of other superstars didn’t write their biggest hits either. Instead, they relied on professional songwriters.

[music in]

Billboard magazine was founded in 1894, and was originally about advertising. But as phonographs, jukeboxes and radios became more common, they started focusing on music. In 1940, Billboard started tracking the most popular songs in the United States. Since then, there have been over thirteen hundred number one hit songs, and the majority of them were not written by the performers.

[music out]

For example, the very first number one song was I’ll Never Smile Again, by Tommy Dorsey and his Orchestra.

[music clip: I’ll Never Smile Again]

Side note… That voice you hear is actually a young Frank Sinatra.

[slowly fade music out]

Now, you may not have heard of Tommy Dorsey, but in the 1940s he was one of the biggest names in show business. In total, he had 17 number one hits. Everyone back then knew who Tommy Dorsey was. But almost no one knew the name Ruth Lowe. And she was the one who wrote I’ll Never Smile Again. She also wrote the lyrics to another Frank Sinatra hit, Put Your Dreams Away (For Another Day).

[music clip: Put Your Dreams Away into Moines Le Quartet - The Olive Branch]

Andrew: Right from the start of recorded music, singers were paying songwriters to come up with tunes.

That’s Twenty Thousand Hertz producer Andrew Anderson.

Andrew: Often, these singers didn’t actually get to choose which songs they got to sing. [sfx: 1940s NYC] Instead, their managers would go to places like the Brill Building in New York City to find songs they thought could be hits for their artists.

[sfx: Brill Building scene]

Andrew: The Brill Building was where a lot of major music publishing companies were based. Back then, songwriters would actually work in the building, and there were even piano players on standby who could perform songs from sheet music for potential customers. Ruth Lowe would visit the building regularly to share her new songs. And that’s where Tommy Dorsey first heard “I’ll Never Smile Again.”

[music out]

Andrew: And it wasn’t just pop singers who were performing other people’s songs. The practice was also common in country music. For example, Johnny Cash’s hit “A Boy Named Sue…”

[music clip: Johnny Cash - A Boy Named Sue]

Andrew: …Was actually written by songwriter and cartoonist Shel Silverstein. “One’s On the Way,” by Lauretta Lynn, was another Silverstein tune.

[music clip: Lauretta Lynn - One’s On the Way]

Andrew: Really, it wasn’t until rock and roll came along that more pop singers began mainly recording tracks they wrote themselves. Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Buddy Holly all became famous performing their own hits.

For instance, here’s Chuck Berry’s hit song “Carol.”

[music clip: Chuck Berry - Carol]

Andrew: Those early rock ‘n’ rollers had a huge influence on the British Invasion bands of the 1960s. The Beatles, The Kinks and The Rolling Stones all covered lots of these rock ‘n’ roll classics.

Here’s The Rolling Stones covering that same Chuck Berry song.

[music clip: The Rolling Stones - Carol]

And here’s The Beatles’ version.

[music clip: The Beatles - Carol]

Andrew: Of course, The Beatles would go on to become great songwriters in their own right. Not only did they record their own tunes, but they also wrote for other artists like PJ Proby, Cilla Black and The Rolling Stones. In fact, The Rolling Stones’ first hit song “I Wanna Be Your Man” was written for them by Lennon and McCartney.

[music clip: I Wanna Be Your Man]

Andrew: But despite bands like The Beatles, many songwriters remained in the background. For instance, Hoyt Axton was a singer songwriter whose solo career never really took off. But Axton did write hit songs for artists like Steppenwolf, Ringo Starr and Three Dog Night.

[music clip: Joy to the World]

Andrew: At the same time, there were artists like Elton John, who wrote his own music but didn’t write his own lyrics. The words to most of Elton’s hits were actually written by his collaborator Bernie Taupin.

[music clip: Rocket Man]

Andrew: Then in the 1980s there was Tina Turner, who didn’t come up with her most famous songs.

[music clip: Simply the Best]

Andrew: And that trend continued in the 90s and 2000s, with huge stars like Britney Spears and Ricky Martin almost exclusively recording songs written by other people.

[music clip: Oops I Did It Again]

While everyone knows the names of the singers, the songwriters often stay in the shadows. So what’s in it for them? For one thing, songwriting is big business. Songwriters make a little bit of money every time one of their songs is purchased, streamed, covered, sampled, played on the radio, or used in a TV show or movie… So if one of your songs becomes a hit, that can add up to be a lot of money.

But of course, writing just one hit song is hard enough. And making a whole career out of it is even harder.

[music in]

Desmond: What you need to have is a dream in your head that you're going to make it, and you have to have 90% drive and follow through and discipline.

Desmond: My name is Desmond Child, and I am a songwriter.

Andrew: Unless you’re a music geek you probably don’t recognise his name, but he’s actually one of the most successful songwriters of the last 40 years. He’s had top-10 hit songs in every decade since the 1970s, and written some of the most iconic songs of all time, working with artists from Alice Cooper to Cher to Katy Perry.

Here’s a quick mashup of some of Desmond’s hits.

[music clip: Desmond mashup]

Andrew: He’s had a lot of chart success. But that success didn’t come overnight.

[music in]

Andrew: Desmond grew up in a musical household in Florida. His mother was a Cuban songwriter and poet. And Desmond himself started writing at a young age.

Desmond: The first song I wrote was a song called “Birthday Blues,” and I wrote it for this girl that I had kind of a crush on.

Desmond: I was 14.

Desmond: She was very sophisticated, from a fantastic family of musicians, and I was invited to her birthday party, and I didn't have any money for a gift or anything like that that would suit her.

Desmond: And so I decided to write her a song and sit down at her piano and sing it to her. So I did, and she looked at me and was like, "Wow!" And it sort of went like this, [sfx: music out into singing].

Desmond: “Birthday blues, brand new shoes. All the wanting to’s, all the you’s you’d like to be.”

Andrew: After his birthday party performance, Desmond kept writing tunes. Eventually he dropped out of high school, and moved to New York City. There, he started a band called Desmond Child & Rouge. They played in the same scene as bands like Blondie, Alice Cooper and Chicago, and even performed on Saturday Night Live.

[sfx clip: Desmond Child & Rouge on SNL]

Andrew: Through that band Desmond made a connection that would lead to his first big break as a songwriter.

Desmond: Desmond Child & Rouge was playing a place called Tracks. Paul Stanley came to see us from KISS… And we made friends, and he said, "Hey, let's try writing a song together." I said, "Oh, well, if I do that, you'd have to co-write a song with me for our album." And we co-wrote a song called “The Fight.”

[music clip: The Fight]

Andrew: But it was the KISS song that Desmond and Paul wrote together that would change music history.

Desmond: Paul Stanley was really my first professional co-write session.

[music clip: I Was Made for Loving You]

Desmond: Paul and I sat at a big grand piano. We took the cover off of it

Desmond: and we wrote “I Was Made for Loving You.”

[music up, then fade under]

Andrew: “I Was Made for Loving You" was a pretty big hit in the United States, and an even bigger hit abroad. But more importantly, it was one of the first times that hard rock and disco had been brought together in the same song.

Desmond: So that four on the floor, I didn't think of it as disco, I thought of it as like a dance beat, or just rocking out, you know? Just four on the floor.

Andrew: Four on the floor is a drum pattern where the bass drum is played on every beat. It’s used all the time in dance music [sfx], but it’s less common in rock drumming. A traditional rock drum beat sounds like this…

[sfx: classic rock beat]

Andrew:…with the kick drum on the first and 3rd beat of every bar.

Andrew: When you add the extra bass drum hits, it sounds like this…

[sfx: four on the floor]

Andrew: Then add in some more hi-hat hits…

[sfx: four on the floor + extra hi hats]

Andrew: And you’ve got yourself a disco-rock crossover.

[crossfade to “I Was Made For Loving You” Snippet]

Desmond: As you can see, we were visionaries because from that moment on, dance beats and rock guitars were married forever.

But despite the song’s success, one particular band member has never been a big fan.

Desmond: Gene hated the song.

Apparently, Gene Simmons never liked having to sing the falsetto melody in “I Was Made for Lovin’ You.” Here he is in an interview with OK Magazine.

[sfx clip: Gene: Ok, what’s my part? Doo doo doo doo doo… You’re killing me. Really? I’m gonna sing like my grandmother?... I hate playing that song today.]

Andrew: Gene may not like it, but he does still play it, and not just at concerts. There’s a scene in the 2016 rom-com Why Him where KISS shows up, right as James Franco proposes to his girlfriend.

[sfx clip: Why Him clip: I know how much you love their music, so… I was made for loving you, baby you were made for loving me…]

Desmond: And there's Gene Simmons in his makeup, playing the song “I Was Made for Loving You,” happy as can be. I guess the check was really big. [laugh]

[music in]

After that song became a hit, Desmond got all kinds of new opportunities, working with Cher, Bon Jovi, Kelly Clarkson and many others. But of course, Desmond isn’t the only person writing hits for famous artists. Over in the world of hip hop, there’s one songwriter who’s worked with everyone from Snoop Dogg to Nicki Manaj to Travis Scott to Puff Daddy. That’s all coming up, after the break.

[music out]

MIDROLL

[music in]

We all know the names of the pop stars who perform our favorite songs. But the people who write those songs are often only known by music industry insiders. Desmond Child is that kind of songwriter. His first big hit was the Kiss song I Was Made For Loving You. And because of that collaboration, he was put in touch with a young, up and coming artist.

Desmond: It was Paul of course who gave my number to Jon Bon Jovi.

[music out]

Andrew: Desmond had been brought in to help Jon Bon Jovi and his guitarist Richie Sambora write tracks for their 1986 album Slippery When Wet. When Desmond arrived at the studio, he brought along an idea for a song title.

Desmond: …a title that I had literally on a little piece of paper in my back pocket.

That piece of paper read, “You give love a bad name.”

Desmond: As soon as I said the title, Jon looked at me, and he gave me that million, now billion dollar smile [sfx: toothpaste smile] like, it's all teeth, and it was like, "Wow. He's shown his light on me. [sfx: angelic light] That's a real star."

Andrew: That process – starting with a title – is how Desmond almost always works.

Desmond: It's always best to start with a strong title. So I always kind of come in with a couple of titles, like I did with “You Give Love a Bad Name,” and it just ignited the whole thing. Then everything is set up to pay off that title.

Andrew: But to set up that title, they actually took a line from one of Bon Jovi’s earlier songs.  Desmond: He had a song called “Shot Through the Heart” that he had written, and it had been on a previous album, I think their first album.

[music clip: Original Shot Through the Heart]

Andrew: For the melody, Desmond went back to a song he had written for Bonnie Tyler.

[music clip: If You Were a Woman]

Andrew: Desmond was convinced the song would have been a hit, if only the label had done a better job of promoting it. There was just something about that melody…

[music clip: If You Were a Woman]

Andrew: With that, all of the pieces were in place. Jon looked at Desmond…

Desmond: And he said…

[music clip: You Give Love a Bad Name]

Desmond: "Shot through the heart, and you're to blame," and then the three of us shouted out, "You give love a bad name."

[music up]

Desmond: That was our first three-way high-five. And I never looked back.

[music out]

Andrew: Desmond also co-wrote “Livin’ on a Prayer” from the same album.

[music clip: Livin on a Prayer]

Andrew: As well as being commercially successful, Desmond’s work with Bon Jovi also brought a new rhythmic sensibility to heavy rock music.

Desmond: It was revolutionary, and that changed the course of rock and pop music forever, because if you listen to the bass on those two songs, it's really an R&B Motown bass. When I was writing “You Give Love a Bad Name” with them, I was on a keyboard, and I was playing sort of a [imitates bass line] [music] It sort of was like “Billie Jean” like, [imitates bass line]. [music]

Desmond: And Richie said, "Dude...that's like Michael Jackson stuff." I said, “Play it on guitar, but chug it tight.” So he started playing [imitates guitar line]. Again, the big smile from Jon [sfx: toothpaste ting!]. And that was a kind of soul element that came to hard rock music that really hadn't been there before.

Andrew: Of course, not every songwriter gets personally invited into the studio by a rockstar. More often, they’ll record a demo version of their song, and then have their agent try and sell it to various producers and artist managers.

For example, the Britney Spears song “Toxic” was written by English singer songwriter Cathy Dennis. Here’s her demo version, which is already very close to the final product.

[music clip: Cathy Dennis Toxic demo]

Andrew: She wrote it with Janet Jackson in mind, but Janet’s team turned it down. Then she tried to sell it to Australian pop singer Kylie Minogue, who also wasn’t interested. Finally it ended up being taken by Britney.

[music clip: Britney Spears - Toxic]

Andrew: Another good example would be the song “Manic Monday, which was actually written by Prince. Here’s the original demo version.

[music clip: Prince - Manic Monday]

Andrew: Next, he recorded a version with a group he was managing called Apollonia 6.

[music clip: Apollonia 6 - Manic Monday]

Andrew: But Prince wasn’t happy with the result, and he decided not to put it on the album. In the end, he sent the song to The Bangles and it became a huge hit for them.

[music clip: Bangles - Manic Monday]

There are tons more of these demos out there, but they usually never get released to the public.

Andrew: So that’s how the demo model works. But other times, a producer or record label will reach out to a songwriter when they think they’d be a good fit for a particular project. And that’s how Glenda Proby – known by her stage name Gizzle – usually works.

Gizzle: My name is Gizzle. I'm a songwriter, Grammy Award-winning, by the grace of God.

[music in: Stan Forbee - Cargo Rhodes]

Andrew: As for her stage name, originally she was known as Lady G. But then someone at a record label told her…

Gizzle: “You should think about changing your name. It's really close to Lady Gaga.”

Andrew: Luckily, she already had an alternative name.

Gizzle: Being from LA, and you know Snoop Dogg, he's the originator of the izzle, the drizzle, the everything,

[sfx clip: Doggy Fizzle Televizzle - Big Snoop Dogg comin at ya live from Doggy Fizzle Televizzle..]

Gizzle: …so we talk like that. So I have a friend named Rance…he would always be just like, "Lady Gizzle, Gizzle, Gizzle." I was like, "I like that."

[music out]

Andrew: Gizzle originally started out as a solo performer.

Gizzle: I had my first record deal offers at 16, 17, and I ended up passing on them just because I didn't like the structure of the deals and where we landed. I was like, "Okay, I guess I'll go to college."

Andrew: But while she was still in school, a local Los Angeles producer asked her if she’d help out on a songwriting session.

Gizzle: The thought never even crossed my mind, but they were willing to pay me and they let me be in the studio. So I was like, "All right, I'll give it a shot."

Andrew: That first session led to lots of opportunities. Name a hip hop artist from the last 10 years, and chances are she’s worked with them.

Gizzle: I started under the tutelage of the legendary Teddy Riley. I went on to work with Snoop, Travis Scott, Nicki Minaj, Ty Dolla Sign, Puff Daddy, Chris Brown, Kid Ink, Trey Songz, many, many more, I don’t know [chuckle].

Usually, Gizzle writes hooks or verses that other artists perform. But occasionally, she still performs a verse of her own. For instance, here she is on the Puff Daddy track “Harlem.”

[music clip: Harlem]

Gizzle: Working with Puff on anything, you have to bring your A game. He's like, "Yeah. I like that. That was dope. You should try it again."

[music in]

Andrew: When artists reach out to Gizzle, it’s usually because they’re looking for a fresh perspective.

Gizzle: I always say “You can't write a new song. Every song has been written about every subject under the sun. But what you can do is write it from a different perspective.” And so, since the beginning of my songwriting career, I just always wanted to come from a different angle and perspective than you would normally hear.

Andrew: For example, the producer Ty Dolla Sign brought her in to help with a love song for rapper Trey Songz that he wasn’t sure how to finish.

Gizzle: We're in the studio and Ty, he did all the melodies and stuff and then we wrote in the words, but he's singing some melody and the hook and he's like, "Well, what's up? What are you thinking?" I was like, "I don't know, man, I just keep hearing '’I fumbled your heart."

[music out]

Gizzle: And to me, it sounded dumb when I said it. You know? [laughs] And he's like, "Oh, no, that's hard. That's hard." Then when he sung it, he has the ability to sing anything and make it sound dope. And then Trey just took it to the next level when he cut his vocals.

[music clip: Fumble]

Andrew: And there was a similar situation with Snoop Dogg. Back in 2008, he was looking for writers with a new and original voice for his album Ego Trippin’. So producer Teddy Riley put Snoop in touch with Gizzle.

Gizzle: He was like, "Hey, do you want to work on this Snoop Dogg album?" I'm like, "What? Yeah." You know what I'm saying? I’m like, “Snoop Dogg is going to let me write for him!?”

Gizzle: Well, I'm young, I'm a girl. This is never heard of. There's no young girls writing for grown men, you know?

Andrew: Gizzle ended up writing parts for several songs on that album, including the verses for “Gangsta Like Me.”

[music clip: Gangsta Like Me]

Gizzle: That was the first time I heard my words rapped verbatim, if that makes sense? Well, not like the very first time, but by Snoop Dogg, you know what I mean? So I was like, "Oh, man, this is trippy."

Andrew: In hip hop, most songs are collaborations between the producers, and several writers who work on the verses and the melodic hooks. For instance, on Puff Daddy’s “You Could Be My Lover,” Gizzle wrote and performed one of the verses, and also came up with the hook.

[music clip: You Could Be My Lover]

Gizzle: I think with a hook, it's a little harder because it's really the most impactful part of the song. Then the rapper in me loves the verse, right? Because I think that's where you get the time to be able to tell your story and just show off your skill. But the hook is what's going to bring the average listener in and the masses.

Gizzle: It's definitely about capturing that magic with the hook... And then once you got the hook, it's like, "Okay, phew! I can breathe on these verses." You know what I mean? "I can take my time now."

Gizzle says that to write a good hook, you have to think about your audience, and they want to hear. And the same thing applies to writing a catchy chorus. For instance, if a song is aimed at people who speak a different language, then it makes sense to include some lyrics in that language.

That’s what Desmond did in the late 90s, when he wrote the song that would become one of the biggest hits of his career. It all started when a friend recommended one of the actors on General Hospital.

Desmond: And she kept saying, "There's a guy on that show, he can sing. You should work with him. He's got it."

The actor she was talking about was an up and coming artist by the name of Ricky Martin. On General Hospital, Martin played a character named Miguel, who often got a chance to sing.

[sfx clip: General Hospital - Miguel Sings]

Desmond: So I had my manager call up the label and see what was going on with him. And it just so happened that they were thinking of doing a crossover, Latin crossover record.

Andrew: As a Cuban-American, Desmond is fluent in Spanish. But a Spanish pop song wasn’t quite what the label had in mind.

Desmond: Right away the manager was saying, "Write a song in Spanglish!" And so… I spent days trying to come up with the title, and I kept thinking, "Wow, what are Spanish words that just the average American would understand," and bingo, I thought about El Pollo Loco…

[sfx clip: El Pollo Loco ad - “El Pollo Loco! Taste the fire.]

Desmond: …And so El Pollo Loco, La Vida Loca. Livin', which is in English, La Vida Loca.”

[music clip: Livin’ La Vida Loca]

Desmond: “La vida loca” is the only Spanish lyric in that song. Everything else is in English, but when I presented the song, the label said, "Well, can you write it now in English?" I said, "It is in English." "Well, no one's going to understand La Vida Loca." I said, "They will! Give them a chance." So when the ad came out for the single, almost bigger than the title underneath it, it said, "Livin' the Crazy Life." It’s like are you kidding me? I mean…

[sfx: Bad interpretation: “Livin the crazy liiiife!”]

Andrew: Livin La Vida Loca, the real version, was a number 1 hit in the US for five consecutive weeks. It also kicked off what became known as the Latin pop explosion, with artists like Shakira, J-Lo and Enrique Iglesias all having big hits not long after.

Desmond: In fact, it got so big, they had to create Latin Grammy's to accommodate all the Latin artists that started to emerge.

[sfx clip: 1st Latin Grammys - “And the Latin Grammy goes to… Shakira!”]

[music in]

Andrew: Successful songwriters somehow manage to use the sounds, and the trends, and the ideas that are swirling around us and distil them into something that resonates with millions of people. And when a song really speaks to you, it becomes something more than just a catchy melody. Our favorite songs are like signposts for the most important moments in our lives.

Gizzle: I think that songwriters and the songs that they write, I mean, you know, it's the news. It's like CNN musically. It's always an indication of the times, you know? It's how we go back and reflect on how we've grown throughout these eras. So that's why it's important for songwriters and artists and producers to make these records that resonate… Because it speaks to a lot of people's experience and understandings and feelings that they felt, but weren't able to express.

Desmond: Music is very healing, and can really help a person reflect on their own life. We need it.

Desmond: When we hear a singer that sings with emotion, it touches our heart, we relate to it, and then that becomes our story.

Desmond: We live in a very divided world these days… And there's people on one side, there's people on the other. But guess what? They all show up to Bon Jovi. They all put their fists in the air, and they all scream out “Livin' on a Prayer.”...So music has a way of uniting people, and music has a way of getting us in touch with our humanity. And that's the thing that will help keep us from destroying ourselves… So I think music is a component to saving the world.

[music transition into credits track]

Twenty Thousand Hertz is hosted by me, Dallas Taylor, and produced out of the sound design studios of Defacto Sound. Treat your ears to some tasty sonic snacks by following Defacto Sound on Instagram.

This episode was written and reported by Andrew Anderson. It was story edited by Casey Emerling. With help from Sam Reinbold. It was sound designed and mixed by Nick Spradlin.

Thanks to our guests, Desmond Child and Gizzle.

To hear the extended cut of this episode, sign up to become a Twenty Thousand Hertz contributor at 20K dot org slash donate. It’s four dollars a month, and once you sign up, you’ll instantly get access to our premium feed, Twenty Thousand Hertz Plus that you can listen to right here in your podcast player. Over there, you can hear a version of this episode that includes a really fun 4-minute story that we ended up having to cut for time. Not only that, you’ll get the entire Twenty Thousand Hertz catalog plus all future episodes, completely ad free. To sign up, go to 20K dot org slash donate, or click the link in the show description.

Thanks for listening.

[music out]